People in China and North Korea are somehow doing better than me here in Finland?
Depends heavily on who “people” are in either instance. There are absolutely people in China living happier, healthier, and more prosperous lives than folks out in Finland. There are NKians living better, too (although significantly fewer due to Finland’s position as a global north energy exporter). There are Chinese and Korean folks living worse, too, of course.
If you expand the question to all of Europe, relative to China/NK, then the numbers look even better for the East Asian states. Certainly, folks living in bombed-out Ukrainian border towns are doing a lot worse than their North Korean peers. And significantly worse than the folks living peaceful and prosperous lives in Chongqing or Shanghai. Middle Eastern refugees scraping by in Turkyie and Romania, or getting surrounded by angry mobs of protesters in some shitty apartment in the UK or France, are doing substantially worse. Elderly pensioners working into their 80s in countries like Bulgaria or Moldova are far worse off than their Chinese and NK peers, comfortably retired in their mid-50s.
For some reason, westerners have their view of these countries trapped in the early 90s and refuse to believe the intervening 30 year span has delivered any kind of social or economic progress. You can watch full reel-to-reel videos of people touring these countries and all you get back is “Potemkin Village! Fake News! Everyone is secretly starving just outside the focus of the cameras!” in the comments. Pure denialism. But its necessary to believe a country like Finland is the best any nation on earth can possibly be when your government is in the process of freezing university funding, cutting social welfare benefits, and fattening up its national security budgets.
I went by hitchhiking through China from Khorgos to the Laotian border and was hosted by several local families in their homes on the way. I have seen more of Chinese everyday life than you have.
Your view of China has been trapped in Chinese propaganda.
And also: I would not say that the Chinese that are living a lavish life with a lot of luxury are living a socialist life. They might be an example of how “capitalism makes people happy”, but I don’t think that’s really correct either.
Your view of China has been trapped in Chinese propaganda.
Funny, because I was stuck in Hong Kong for a couple of weeks during the 2019 riots. Was it Chinese propaganda when the students were waving big “Trump 2020” banners?
I would not say that the Chinese that are living a lavish life with a lot of luxury are living a socialist life.
I wouldn’t say this about anyone. It’s not “luxury” if everyone’s enjoying it. That’s sort of the joke of socialism. It’s a basic standard of human comfort, not a lavish expression of artificial scarcity. One day you wake up and there’s cheap abundant cavier and 1 carat perfect clarity diamonds at bargain basement prices. Then they’re not delicacies reserved for the privileged elites anymore.
They might be an example of how “capitalism makes people happy”
Sure, if you ignore that the Maoist uprising against the landlords was the largest and most comprehensive proletarian revolution in history, and led to almost totally-equal redistribution of land among the peasantry.
When wealth isn’t being ruthlessly consolidated and surplus value vacuumed up from a powerless working class, its easy to walk down a main street in the Futain district and think “Wow, we’ve got Toys’R’Us in the states, too! I guess they’re just as capitalist as we are.”
Only problem is that Toys’R’Us doesn’t exist in the US anymore, on account of a leveraged buyout and subsequent bust-out of the business. Commercial practices that would get you run out of town on a rail in Beijing are how you get rich quick in the States.
Correct.
In the case of China it’s not enjoyed by everyone, though. A typical Chinese toilet is a huge hole in the ground with some kind of slabs of concrete over them, with a 15 cm wide slit between the slabs. You go stand on the two slabs and poop into the cavity underneath. There is typically a roof overneath. Homes often don’t have anything on the floors. Just bare concrete.
The people living in opulence are not enjoying something everyone there has. They are enjoying something only the richest 0,5 % among their people has. China is a country where wealth is concentrated extremely strongly to the few.
Sure, if you ignore that the Maoist uprising against the landlords was the largest and most comprehensive proletarian revolution in history, and led to almost totally-equal redistribution of land among the peasantry.
That happened long before yesterday, though. If you look at decades such as 1970’s or 1980’s or even later, you’ll notice that whatever Mao was striving for, got eventually all undone.
In the case of China it’s not enjoyed by everyone, though.
The industrialization of scarce commodities significantly increases the number of consumers of the given good or service.
A typical Chinese toilet is a huge hole in the ground
It’s funny, because I’ve been in some shockingly fancy squatty-potty restrooms. Definitely took some getting used to. But that’s more a consequence of culture than economic necessity. And anything that’s been renovated in the last 30 years will have a handicap accessible stall with a sit-down toilet.
I feel like I’m talking to someone who spent six months in the West Virginia back country, trying to insist everyone in the US still uses the Outhouse. What you’re describing doesn’t exist in any of the massive high rise apartments thrown up all over the eastern seaboard. You’re discounting hundreds of millions of people.
The people living in opulence are not enjoying something everyone there has.
The people still living in rural backwaters are at the tail end of a massive upgrade to trade and travel. They received access to modern industrial farming and manufacturing back in the 80s and 90s. That’s why you don’t need a full third of the population manually planting rice anymore just to avoid a continent-spanning famine.
If you didn’t notice the big industrial combines and giant metal storehouses, nevermind the full electrification of the back country (a feat neighboring India, rural Latin America, Central Africa, and even parts of Eastern Europe have struggled to achieve) then you weren’t looking.
That happened long before yesterday, though.
It laid the foundation for a century of economic growth and prosperity. What you’re seeing today is the fruit of the revolutionaries’ labor.
whatever Mao was striving for, got eventually all undone.
China passed through an industrial revolution and changed the underlying economy from subsistence farms to a modern manufacturing and professional service-based economy. That’s not a reversal of the Long March. It’s the fondest dream of any well-read Marxist scholar.
Shorter working hours, high living standards, a more educated population, and a robust domestically owned and operated worker economy is Socialist stage of economic development that Marxists strive towards… until they get there and seek to go further.
Depends heavily on who “people” are in either instance. There are absolutely people in China living happier, healthier, and more prosperous lives than folks out in Finland. There are NKians living better, too (although significantly fewer due to Finland’s position as a global north energy exporter). There are Chinese and Korean folks living worse, too, of course.
If you expand the question to all of Europe, relative to China/NK, then the numbers look even better for the East Asian states. Certainly, folks living in bombed-out Ukrainian border towns are doing a lot worse than their North Korean peers. And significantly worse than the folks living peaceful and prosperous lives in Chongqing or Shanghai. Middle Eastern refugees scraping by in Turkyie and Romania, or getting surrounded by angry mobs of protesters in some shitty apartment in the UK or France, are doing substantially worse. Elderly pensioners working into their 80s in countries like Bulgaria or Moldova are far worse off than their Chinese and NK peers, comfortably retired in their mid-50s.
For some reason, westerners have their view of these countries trapped in the early 90s and refuse to believe the intervening 30 year span has delivered any kind of social or economic progress. You can watch full reel-to-reel videos of people touring these countries and all you get back is “Potemkin Village! Fake News! Everyone is secretly starving just outside the focus of the cameras!” in the comments. Pure denialism. But its necessary to believe a country like Finland is the best any nation on earth can possibly be when your government is in the process of freezing university funding, cutting social welfare benefits, and fattening up its national security budgets.
I went by hitchhiking through China from Khorgos to the Laotian border and was hosted by several local families in their homes on the way. I have seen more of Chinese everyday life than you have.
Your view of China has been trapped in Chinese propaganda.
And also: I would not say that the Chinese that are living a lavish life with a lot of luxury are living a socialist life. They might be an example of how “capitalism makes people happy”, but I don’t think that’s really correct either.
Funny, because I was stuck in Hong Kong for a couple of weeks during the 2019 riots. Was it Chinese propaganda when the students were waving big “Trump 2020” banners?
I wouldn’t say this about anyone. It’s not “luxury” if everyone’s enjoying it. That’s sort of the joke of socialism. It’s a basic standard of human comfort, not a lavish expression of artificial scarcity. One day you wake up and there’s cheap abundant cavier and 1 carat perfect clarity diamonds at bargain basement prices. Then they’re not delicacies reserved for the privileged elites anymore.
Sure, if you ignore that the Maoist uprising against the landlords was the largest and most comprehensive proletarian revolution in history, and led to almost totally-equal redistribution of land among the peasantry.
When wealth isn’t being ruthlessly consolidated and surplus value vacuumed up from a powerless working class, its easy to walk down a main street in the Futain district and think “Wow, we’ve got Toys’R’Us in the states, too! I guess they’re just as capitalist as we are.”
Only problem is that Toys’R’Us doesn’t exist in the US anymore, on account of a leveraged buyout and subsequent bust-out of the business. Commercial practices that would get you run out of town on a rail in Beijing are how you get rich quick in the States.
Correct.
In the case of China it’s not enjoyed by everyone, though. A typical Chinese toilet is a huge hole in the ground with some kind of slabs of concrete over them, with a 15 cm wide slit between the slabs. You go stand on the two slabs and poop into the cavity underneath. There is typically a roof overneath. Homes often don’t have anything on the floors. Just bare concrete.
The people living in opulence are not enjoying something everyone there has. They are enjoying something only the richest 0,5 % among their people has. China is a country where wealth is concentrated extremely strongly to the few.
That happened long before yesterday, though. If you look at decades such as 1970’s or 1980’s or even later, you’ll notice that whatever Mao was striving for, got eventually all undone.
The industrialization of scarce commodities significantly increases the number of consumers of the given good or service.
It’s funny, because I’ve been in some shockingly fancy squatty-potty restrooms. Definitely took some getting used to. But that’s more a consequence of culture than economic necessity. And anything that’s been renovated in the last 30 years will have a handicap accessible stall with a sit-down toilet.
I feel like I’m talking to someone who spent six months in the West Virginia back country, trying to insist everyone in the US still uses the Outhouse. What you’re describing doesn’t exist in any of the massive high rise apartments thrown up all over the eastern seaboard. You’re discounting hundreds of millions of people.
The people still living in rural backwaters are at the tail end of a massive upgrade to trade and travel. They received access to modern industrial farming and manufacturing back in the 80s and 90s. That’s why you don’t need a full third of the population manually planting rice anymore just to avoid a continent-spanning famine.
If you didn’t notice the big industrial combines and giant metal storehouses, nevermind the full electrification of the back country (a feat neighboring India, rural Latin America, Central Africa, and even parts of Eastern Europe have struggled to achieve) then you weren’t looking.
It laid the foundation for a century of economic growth and prosperity. What you’re seeing today is the fruit of the revolutionaries’ labor.
China passed through an industrial revolution and changed the underlying economy from subsistence farms to a modern manufacturing and professional service-based economy. That’s not a reversal of the Long March. It’s the fondest dream of any well-read Marxist scholar.
Shorter working hours, high living standards, a more educated population, and a robust domestically owned and operated worker economy is Socialist stage of economic development that Marxists strive towards… until they get there and seek to go further.