I don’t even think it should be labeled as a disorder. Or at least people should be more aware of what a disorder means. It doesn’t necessarily mean there is anything wrong with the person. The behavior just happens to not be suitable for the particular environment they are in and causes difficulties. If you change environments to one that allows that behavior to no longer be a problem then they no longer have a disorder.
You don’t understand. It’s only a mental disorder because we have built environments for people that are not suitable for everybody. It’s possible that there may not exist an environment that makes any mental disorder not be a problem, but ADD and ADHD in my opinion is not one of them. Many countries don’t recognize these as a mental disorders because they haven’t built a society that causes problems for people with ADD or ADHD.
As someone with ADD I find it a bit ridiculous that because I can’t pay absolute attention on something I’m uninterested in while stuck in a room unable to leave that I have a mental disorder. The problem doesn’t lie with me, but with the environment I am in. But alas, that is just how a mental order is defined.
So much to unpick here, and so little inclination to bother. Like many with ADHD, I’m sick of dealing with the constant disinformation and toxic positivity that surrounds this condition - and which you’re contributing to.
If you think ADHD is about attention, then you really still don’t get it. Go and watch Dr Russell Barkley’s videos on YouTube. There’s a seminar about 2.5 hours long that is well worth the time.
I’m curious what you would change about (Western?) society to make ADHD manageable like it apparently already is in “many countries,” in concrete well defined terms. Not sure how society could negate the emotional regulation issues that frequently come with ADHD. I would also emphasize there’s a distinction between “a society where people with ADHD can function” and “a society perfectly suited for people with ADHD.”
I’m sensing that ADHD is a label thrust upon you, and if you feel you function fine without any sort of treatment it’s probably not accurate. It’s also now occurring to me how hilariously easy it would be to troll any sort of mental health issue. Depression isn’t a disorder it’s just SADNESS coming from MODERN SOCIETY and we just need to uncheck the CAUSE DEPRESSION box in society’s configuration.
As someone with ADHD, I cannot regulate my attention to things I do care about or things I don’t care about. I struggle daily with doing basic tasks. I can’t maintain hobbies and have difficulty with maintaining a relationship. Finances and budgets are impacted by difficulty with regulating impulses. My working memory causes me to forget things and people quite frequently. Tasks which are not emergencies take a monumental amount of effort to begin. This impacts my work and my income.
Because you might have a specific type of ADD and are relatively well functioning doesn’t mean that others don’t struggle with it’s symptoms regularly.
It more sounds that the poster has either extremely mild ADHD or a self-diagnosis, but I’m also guessing and have no medical training.
I experience exactly the same as you. Maintaining anything, be it a habit, relationship, hobby, promise or pretty much anything else is frustratingly hard.
My lack of impulse control has gotten me in some major trouble and decisions I made there were absolutely impacted by my adhd and lack of dopamine.
If it affects day to day life and as such is absolutely a disorder. For the longest time I maintained that it didn’t affect me, but the more and more I understand about how we function differently to NTs the more I realize that I have so many coping mechanisms that I manage through the day I don’t even think about them anymore.
They’re as simple as setting 2 alarms in the morning because I need the inertia of being grumpy about waking up the second time to get out of bed, or having microwaveable meals in the freezer at all times, but I’d fall apart without them.
They’re saying society is set up and engrained in a way where the best solutions for you and I are only as good as torturing ourselves with alarms and keeping a steady supply of frozen convenience fees.
They’re saying it’s only a “disorder” in a negative sense because society has failed to understand that the way things “work” and the traditional ways heavily favor the A-type extroverted morning people (sociopaths) who cannot comprehend how their routines might not be universal. Everyone is forced to live with it regardless because banking hours and business meetings exist for them.
You’re complaining about the very thing he’s saying is forcing you to be “disordered”
There are no environmental changes to be made to remind myself to eat at least once a day, because if I don’t I’ll go days without eating and nearly collapse by the end.
I’m not torturing myself with alarms, rather I’m using the tools I have to make my life liveable. I keep the convenience foods because when it’s been a week since I’ve eaten I can’t get the energy together to go and get something, and can’t wait for something to come to me. It’s about myself making my life easier, rather than forcing my way around barriers setup by society.
ADHD is a disorder because it impacts our ability to produce dopamine. A chemical deficiency causes simple, normal tasks to not feel rewarding. That’s why you see so many people with ADHD doing everything they can to get some kind of dopamine hit. NTs don’t have this issue. They produce dopamine (in smaller quantities) for smaller tasks. There’s a chemical reward for finishing a task. With ADHD there is no dopamine for those small tasks, so we struggle to self-motivate, as we know there’s no payoff at the end.
Environmental factors can certainly exacerbate mental disorders like ADHD, but they are not the sole cause. Just because there are countries that don’t recognize mental disorders as well as others just means they are not up to snuff.
What you described in your second paragraph is just being bored. Not being able to focus on uninteresting topics in a poor environment is standard for most people.
I’m going to support what the person you responded to said, you don’t know what ADHD is.
Sounds like you stopped learning about this in the 90s. It’s not even “labelled” as ADD anymore because it doesn’t truly grasp the scope of the disorder.
I find it a bit ridiculous that because I can’t pay absolute attention on something I’m uninterested in while stuck in a room unable to leave that I have a mental disorder.
If that’s all you think ADD and ADHD are, then I’m with the other guy…you don’t understand ADHD.
You’re a primitive human in the wild. You’re hunting, tracking the prey for a long time. You get distracted and start doing something else. You die. Perhaps even your entire family may starve. This is why it’s a disorder across very different environments. It can affect the person’s ability to cope across extremely different environments.
Likewise, if you have impulse control problems with your ADHD, you might not be able to prevent yourself from making a noise or movement at the wrong time, scaring off the prey or getting the attention of a predator (like a lion). Well, there goes your survival once again.
Tldw: worse outcomes in education, relationships, careers, automobile safety, finance. So all you have to do is not be in school, drive, be in a relationship (romantic or not), have a career, have credit, etc. Your suggestion that it’s just the environment and all we have to do is change how finance, the job market, education, and human relationships work and get fully self driving cars right now is not only woefully uninformed but also such a massive undertaking to the point of being a joke.
I suggested no such thing. You are coming to wild conclusions on your own. Please read it again more carefully. I have in no way suggested that it is possible to change the environment.
You have misunderstood what has been said. It’s more challenging because society has built an environment that is not suitable for you and many others. This is just a matter of semantics and how to attribute fault with definitions. It’s not your fault who you are is not suitable for the way things are. It’s the way things are that are not suitable for you.
While societal changes can help, there is plenty that environment can’t fix.
A set of conditions becomes a disorder when they have a significant negative impact on a person. It’s the difference between "oh I’m so OCD giggle"and “if I don’t flip the light switch exactly four times, someone will die”. Even under perfect conditions, there are still negative impacts.
Declassifying it only hurts patients as then insurance and society at large world be given no reason to cut a little slack (for lack of a faster description).
That might the gist of it, but it definitely has everything to do with how the environment is structured. There might be no other feasible way to structure the environment though.
Not really, though. Rigid structure helps with ADHD, but only when someone else is enforcing the structure. Prepubescent kids with ADHD aren’t typically capable of maintaining their own structure. They aren’t neurotypical, it’s more than distraction and energy, they have a functioning issue. They can’t tune out all the stimulus that normal brains do, and because of it they miss a lot of social cues that help with development.
My son has ADHD and no amount of reorienting our family environment would help him - he could (and has) literally be in a bare concrete room with nothing but his thoughts and get distracted and slam his hands together making exploding/punching sounds for hours, where a typical kid would get bored in seconds.
you’re like almost getting at the social model of disability, but framing it in a way that invalidates people’s lived experiences of having a brain that works fundamentally differently from the norm.
I’m not doing any such thing. Everyone has just had some weird misunderstanding. The topic of the thread is about putting a positive spin on the term and I am agreeing to that as it is something I personally deal with. I find that the term “disorder” has an unfair negative connotation and could possibly be called something else. Preferably with a more positive connotation that doesn’t imply there is something wrong being born this way. If that isn’t possible then people should at least understand the medical definition of what a disorder is to help remove the negative connotation.
The response has been disturbing to say the least. Considering how ridiculous some people have been I have to assume negative intent of trolling and ableism.
Try to keep in mind how many redditors are now on lemmy.
They get emotional and want to fight over semantics and anecdotes constantly especially when they realize they’ve assumed intent incorrectly. They only know how to double down. It’s not their fault.
They’re only hearing “your problem isn’t real” because they’re not listening.
“Disorder” can be seen negatively. That is fair. However, if you use a milder term than “disorder”, then it is even harder for people to take ADHD seriously as a real thing. This is already a challenge, and using a less serious word would make it worse.
I don’t even think it should be labeled as a disorder. Or at least people should be more aware of what a disorder means. It doesn’t necessarily mean there is anything wrong with the person. The behavior just happens to not be suitable for the particular environment they are in and causes difficulties. If you change environments to one that allows that behavior to no longer be a problem then they no longer have a disorder.
You clearly don’t understand ADHD.
This is how a mental disorder is medically defined. What are you suggesting?
That you don’t understand ADHD.
You don’t understand. It’s only a mental disorder because we have built environments for people that are not suitable for everybody. It’s possible that there may not exist an environment that makes any mental disorder not be a problem, but ADD and ADHD in my opinion is not one of them. Many countries don’t recognize these as a mental disorders because they haven’t built a society that causes problems for people with ADD or ADHD.
As someone with ADD I find it a bit ridiculous that because I can’t pay absolute attention on something I’m uninterested in while stuck in a room unable to leave that I have a mental disorder. The problem doesn’t lie with me, but with the environment I am in. But alas, that is just how a mental order is defined.
So much to unpick here, and so little inclination to bother. Like many with ADHD, I’m sick of dealing with the constant disinformation and toxic positivity that surrounds this condition - and which you’re contributing to.
If you think ADHD is about attention, then you really still don’t get it. Go and watch Dr Russell Barkley’s videos on YouTube. There’s a seminar about 2.5 hours long that is well worth the time.
I might need some more education apparently, so the seminar you’re talking about is this one ?
https://piped.video/watch?v=YSfCdBBqNXY?si=Wpr0koBLjoV6CF_o
I’m curious what you would change about (Western?) society to make ADHD manageable like it apparently already is in “many countries,” in concrete well defined terms. Not sure how society could negate the emotional regulation issues that frequently come with ADHD. I would also emphasize there’s a distinction between “a society where people with ADHD can function” and “a society perfectly suited for people with ADHD.”
I’m sensing that ADHD is a label thrust upon you, and if you feel you function fine without any sort of treatment it’s probably not accurate. It’s also now occurring to me how hilariously easy it would be to troll any sort of mental health issue. Depression isn’t a disorder it’s just SADNESS coming from MODERN SOCIETY and we just need to uncheck the CAUSE DEPRESSION box in society’s configuration.
Cool. Cool cool cool.
As someone with ADHD, I cannot regulate my attention to things I do care about or things I don’t care about. I struggle daily with doing basic tasks. I can’t maintain hobbies and have difficulty with maintaining a relationship. Finances and budgets are impacted by difficulty with regulating impulses. My working memory causes me to forget things and people quite frequently. Tasks which are not emergencies take a monumental amount of effort to begin. This impacts my work and my income.
Because you might have a specific type of ADD and are relatively well functioning doesn’t mean that others don’t struggle with it’s symptoms regularly.
100%
It more sounds that the poster has either extremely mild ADHD or a self-diagnosis, but I’m also guessing and have no medical training.
I experience exactly the same as you. Maintaining anything, be it a habit, relationship, hobby, promise or pretty much anything else is frustratingly hard.
My lack of impulse control has gotten me in some major trouble and decisions I made there were absolutely impacted by my adhd and lack of dopamine.
If it affects day to day life and as such is absolutely a disorder. For the longest time I maintained that it didn’t affect me, but the more and more I understand about how we function differently to NTs the more I realize that I have so many coping mechanisms that I manage through the day I don’t even think about them anymore.
They’re as simple as setting 2 alarms in the morning because I need the inertia of being grumpy about waking up the second time to get out of bed, or having microwaveable meals in the freezer at all times, but I’d fall apart without them.
They’re saying society is set up and engrained in a way where the best solutions for you and I are only as good as torturing ourselves with alarms and keeping a steady supply of frozen convenience fees.
They’re saying it’s only a “disorder” in a negative sense because society has failed to understand that the way things “work” and the traditional ways heavily favor the A-type extroverted morning people (sociopaths) who cannot comprehend how their routines might not be universal. Everyone is forced to live with it regardless because banking hours and business meetings exist for them.
You’re complaining about the very thing he’s saying is forcing you to be “disordered”
So I very fundamentally disagree with that.
There are no environmental changes to be made to remind myself to eat at least once a day, because if I don’t I’ll go days without eating and nearly collapse by the end.
I’m not torturing myself with alarms, rather I’m using the tools I have to make my life liveable. I keep the convenience foods because when it’s been a week since I’ve eaten I can’t get the energy together to go and get something, and can’t wait for something to come to me. It’s about myself making my life easier, rather than forcing my way around barriers setup by society.
ADHD is a disorder because it impacts our ability to produce dopamine. A chemical deficiency causes simple, normal tasks to not feel rewarding. That’s why you see so many people with ADHD doing everything they can to get some kind of dopamine hit. NTs don’t have this issue. They produce dopamine (in smaller quantities) for smaller tasks. There’s a chemical reward for finishing a task. With ADHD there is no dopamine for those small tasks, so we struggle to self-motivate, as we know there’s no payoff at the end.
Environmental factors can certainly exacerbate mental disorders like ADHD, but they are not the sole cause. Just because there are countries that don’t recognize mental disorders as well as others just means they are not up to snuff.
What you described in your second paragraph is just being bored. Not being able to focus on uninteresting topics in a poor environment is standard for most people.
I’m going to support what the person you responded to said, you don’t know what ADHD is.
Environmental factors? Cause? You have completely misunderstood. This is just a discussion of semantics.
Sounds like you stopped learning about this in the 90s. It’s not even “labelled” as ADD anymore because it doesn’t truly grasp the scope of the disorder.
If that’s all you think ADD and ADHD are, then I’m with the other guy…you don’t understand ADHD.
You’re a primitive human in the wild. You’re hunting, tracking the prey for a long time. You get distracted and start doing something else. You die. Perhaps even your entire family may starve. This is why it’s a disorder across very different environments. It can affect the person’s ability to cope across extremely different environments.
Likewise, if you have impulse control problems with your ADHD, you might not be able to prevent yourself from making a noise or movement at the wrong time, scaring off the prey or getting the attention of a predator (like a lion). Well, there goes your survival once again.
Nope, it’s definitely in my head.
My thoughts are definitely disordered.
Here’s an expert talking about outcomes https://youtube.com/watch?v=26V6LCbKXJU&si=Mu1mO845lvJYCgH8
Tldw: worse outcomes in education, relationships, careers, automobile safety, finance. So all you have to do is not be in school, drive, be in a relationship (romantic or not), have a career, have credit, etc. Your suggestion that it’s just the environment and all we have to do is change how finance, the job market, education, and human relationships work and get fully self driving cars right now is not only woefully uninformed but also such a massive undertaking to the point of being a joke.
I suggested no such thing. You are coming to wild conclusions on your own. Please read it again more carefully. I have in no way suggested that it is possible to change the environment.
This you?
It most certainly is a disorder. Makes everything in my life more challenging.
You have misunderstood what has been said. It’s more challenging because society has built an environment that is not suitable for you and many others. This is just a matter of semantics and how to attribute fault with definitions. It’s not your fault who you are is not suitable for the way things are. It’s the way things are that are not suitable for you.
While societal changes can help, there is plenty that environment can’t fix.
A set of conditions becomes a disorder when they have a significant negative impact on a person. It’s the difference between "oh I’m so OCD giggle"and “if I don’t flip the light switch exactly four times, someone will die”. Even under perfect conditions, there are still negative impacts.
Declassifying it only hurts patients as then insurance and society at large world be given no reason to cut a little slack (for lack of a faster description).
We aren’t neurotypical, that’s really all there is to it. Doesn’t really have anything to do with how society is structured.
That might the gist of it, but it definitely has everything to do with how the environment is structured. There might be no other feasible way to structure the environment though.
By the same logic paraplegics aren’t disabled because they just aren’t in an environment suitable for physically disabled people.
Not really, though. Rigid structure helps with ADHD, but only when someone else is enforcing the structure. Prepubescent kids with ADHD aren’t typically capable of maintaining their own structure. They aren’t neurotypical, it’s more than distraction and energy, they have a functioning issue. They can’t tune out all the stimulus that normal brains do, and because of it they miss a lot of social cues that help with development.
My son has ADHD and no amount of reorienting our family environment would help him - he could (and has) literally be in a bare concrete room with nothing but his thoughts and get distracted and slam his hands together making exploding/punching sounds for hours, where a typical kid would get bored in seconds.
I feel like rigid structure is when my ADHD gets worse…
you’re like almost getting at the social model of disability, but framing it in a way that invalidates people’s lived experiences of having a brain that works fundamentally differently from the norm.
I’m not doing any such thing. Everyone has just had some weird misunderstanding. The topic of the thread is about putting a positive spin on the term and I am agreeing to that as it is something I personally deal with. I find that the term “disorder” has an unfair negative connotation and could possibly be called something else. Preferably with a more positive connotation that doesn’t imply there is something wrong being born this way. If that isn’t possible then people should at least understand the medical definition of what a disorder is to help remove the negative connotation.
The response has been disturbing to say the least. Considering how ridiculous some people have been I have to assume negative intent of trolling and ableism.
Try to keep in mind how many redditors are now on lemmy.
They get emotional and want to fight over semantics and anecdotes constantly especially when they realize they’ve assumed intent incorrectly. They only know how to double down. It’s not their fault.
They’re only hearing “your problem isn’t real” because they’re not listening.
“Disorder” can be seen negatively. That is fair. However, if you use a milder term than “disorder”, then it is even harder for people to take ADHD seriously as a real thing. This is already a challenge, and using a less serious word would make it worse.